>The SAHD Showdown
>After weeks of negotiations, it was finally D Day. S-A-H-D Day, that is.
In a generous and heartwarming gesture of goodwill, I had agreed to schedule a meet-up between my mommies-only playgroup and a group of stay-at-home dads. In order to minimize the risk of insults, hysterics, or bodily injury, we decided to rendezvous at the Bellevue Mall play pit, where there would be plenty of potential witnesses should any lawsuit result from the occasion.
“So where are they?” I asked my friend, Deirdre, when I arrived at the playpit on the appointed morning. She was sitting with two other playgroup moms and no men were in sight.
“I don’t know, I think that might be them up there,” she replied, pointing at the opposite side of the play pit arena. There, in the uppermost corner, three men sat huddled, looking over at our little group every so often with deep suspicion.
“Well, why are they way over there?” I asked. Deirdre shrugged. “I guess they’ll come over here eventually,” I said dubiously.
“This feels like a seventh grade dance,” Deirdre murmured.
After a few long minutes of surreptitious staring back and forth, one of the dads finally made his way over. “Hi,” he said gruffly, shaking my hand. “I’m Rick.” That’s what he said with his mouth, but his eyes said something along the lines of, “Don’t hit me.”
I introduced Rick to my girlfriends, who, after giving him polite smiles, promptly ignored him. But I have to admit I liked the guy. Once we began chatting, three more dads deemed it safe and headed over to introduce themselves. They gathered in a group on my left side, while my playgroup friends sat on my right. It was like an Amish church service and I was the monkey in the middle.
“You know, a lot of you guys have e-mailed me with stories about how various moms made you feel unwelcome,” I said, “and you seem to assume it’s because you’re a stay-at-home-dad. But you have to know that might not have been the reason at all. Women can be really, really bitchy and for every story you have of being shut out or excluded, I have one, too.” They nodded, the light of recognition dawning in their eyes.
“I mean, a mom could be rude to you because she doesn’t like your outfit or because she’s PMSing, or because you remind her of her ex-boyfriend,” I explained helpfully. “And she might really, really hate that ex-boyfriend!” We all laughed weakly. I nudged Deirdre beside me, hoping she’d chime in with something, but she continued talking to the other moms like the dads and I weren’t even there.
Truth be told, it wasn’t bad having men around, for me, anyway. The problem was that my girlfriends couldn’t seem to warm to the idea. And before you make your judgments, these women weren’t being snobby or unfriendly. They were just being… shy, and frankly, so were the dads. I’m sure some of the prickliness between the sexes would dissipate if we met more often and got to know each other better, but realistically if this were a regular playgroup, how many brave souls would keep coming back for another heaping helping of awkward, week after week?
After a few minutes of daddy chat, I talked with my girlfriends for a few minutes. When I turned back to the SAHDs, they were deep in conversation about the pros and cons of c-section tables at various local hospitals.
“Guys, I think we’re going to head over to the food court for lunch,” I said. “It was great meeting you.”
“Yeah,” said Chris, a guy who seemed to be the SAHD leader. “Maybe we can all get together again when it’s a little warmer. We could go to the playground or a swimming pool or something.”
“Sounds good,” I smiled.
“And uh…” Chris paused. “Don’t be too hard on us.”
“Don’t worry,” I said. And I meant it. Truth be told, they were a lot nicer than many of the mommies I’ve encountered on the playgroup circuit, and it was pretty entertaining listening to their chatter about c-sections and sleepless nights with infants. We said our goodbyes, and I headed over to a TV news reporter I knew, who happened to be there getting video for a story. I had run into him when I had arrived at the playpit and told him what I was up to.
“I was watching you guys the whole time,” he said excitedly. “I was ready to get in there and break it up. But the whole thing just looked like a seventh grade dance.”
“You know, you’re not the first person to say that,” I laughed.
Later, once my girlfriends and I had gotten our food and sat down, I cautiously broached the subject. “Well, I thought they seemed nice,” I said.
“Yeah, but did I hear that guy right?” Deidre asked. “Did he say we should all get together and go swimming?”
I grinned. “Yep.”
“Well, he can forget that,” she paused, shuddering. I mean I’m not wearing a swimsuit in front of them!”
“I was thinking the very same thing,” my friend Chelsea said. “Plus, we’d have to see their hairy chests!”
“And their man boobs!” I said. We all giggled.
“Rick was a cute dresser, though,” Deirdre said thoughtfully. “He had on a nice sweater.” I grinned as the conversation finally got back on track after an excruciating hour of trying to make nice. Tolerance and inclusion were all well and good, but this? This was a playgroup.
>I thought they seemed nice, and I would have talked to them, but the seating arrangement was kinda screwy. It was the 4 of them, lined up, then you, D., me, and the other mom. I was kinda scared to change my seat b/c I didn’t know if one of their wives was hiding behind a bush, waiting for one of us to make a move on her man. I did want to know if that one guy remembered me, though. It was his child that pushed mine off of the frog tongue the last time we were there. All in all, though, I thought it went well.
>Great recap!
>I enjoyed this post. Hilarious!
>That you would do this at all after all you’ve been through with SAHDS is one reason why I love you. 😛
>I wonder if it would have been the same if you had invited any other playgroup. Like say a playgroup from another section of town or a playgroup with a different socio-economic status or a playgroup with a different cultural background?
>Well, my playgroup does come from different socio-economic backgrounds and I have girlfriends of all different races and cultures, so no, I don’t think it would be any different. No matter your color or culture or background, men and women are still different. Both wonderful, both intelligent, both able to contribute equally, but different. Why dispute that?
>Oh brother. now the mad dads will come back again. *Ducks and runs.*
>Trouble signing in…ugh.The way I look at is how women must have been back in the day that they were few and far between in corporate settings. They probably stuck together socially at first b/c, what the hell did they have in common with these guys smoking cigars and playing poker? But as the norms shift stay at homes might get a little more comfortable with each other. B
>excellent recap–glad it seemed to have gone well.
>Love your honesty. Thanks.
>if only i could get MY husband to be a SAHD but i think he’d go nuts with nothing to do all day. LOL
>I don’t know how you would do it. There are huge differences between men and women and the way that we take care of our kids. I know that even though I think of myself as an attentive Dad, I am not attentive enough for most Moms. As long as there is no blood, no harm no foul attitude. That alone could get me hurt by a group of Mom’s, and when my kids were young it did get me scowled at.Namaste.
>You have my husband’s attitude, Phil.And Jenny, everyone knows that all SAHDs do all day is sit around drinking Pabst and watching ESPN. And b, yeah. What you said.
>Seriously, men need to learn their place. What makes them think that they can perform such a tradtionally female role in society?
>Man boobs! ROFL!
>Men need to learn their place? If that wasn’t so patently hilarious, I might be offended.And men don’t sit around all day drinking Pabst. Your Grandfather does. SAHD’s drink Samuel Adams.A touch of history with your brew.Namaste.
>I admit it, I was shy. No thank you to the daddys joining the group. I guess there are no sahds in my little world and it kinda freaks me out!
>Dawn, that seems very close-minded of you! (unless you were joking) I know I want to teach my children that men and women can all take on different roles in the community, even non-traditional ones. I imagine when women first started working, lots of men said, “no thank you. this freaks me out.” I also want to teach my children that just because people do things differently doesn’t mean they shouldn’t belong or we couldn’t learn from them.Sorry, Dawn’s comment just really surprised me!
>SAHDs are weird. Why are they trying to mess everything up? They should put their shoes back on, get out of the kitchen and get back in the office.
>Oh dear. This is headed back toward the original argument. Is this some sort of organized social group that, by excluding SAHDs, is depriving them of important benefits? Or is this a group of girlfriends who, much like a group of poker-playing men, feel a little uncomfortable when a member of the opposite sex shows up? I think my playgroup is the latter, but inevitably, whenever it’s discussed here, a few people end up getting pissed off.Conversely, I don’t think it would be very nice (but it would be well within the rights of SAHMs or SAHDs) for a playgroup to exclude the opposite sex at its inception, before everyone even knew each other.And I don’t think that a MOMS Club should be allowed to exclude SAHDs, because it’s a formal group that receives money and specifically supports stay-at-home parents. I’d love for a dad to put that to the test, because I think it would be quite a brouhaha. Any volunteers?And I’m hoping to hang out with the SAHDs I met again. Making my friends uncomfortable is something I sort of enjoy. Plus, I liked the guys and the whole SAHD phenomenon intrigues me.But I still support the right of a few friends to get together weekly and say they’d rather not have men (or women) there on a regular basis.
>Dunno about your YMCA pool, but mine is rife with hairy man boobs. And pasty white thunder-thighs, among other visually assaulting body parts. But for the sake of the kids, we put on dark sunglasses, try to keep our eyes on the kids and persevere. I mean where else can you find a reasonably priced mixture of water, chemicals, sweat, snot, urine, and the occasional dab of blood in which to frolic?Pabst? Yikes.Oh well, at least Rick’s sweater made a good impression.If there are any Middle Tennessee dads lurking, look up http://www.nashdads.com
>It sounds like the whole thing was a little forced. Seventh-grade dance–that’s some bad flashbacks!I gotta throw it out there–pb&j is really reinforcing the stereotypes–do your worry about someone jumping your husband at work? I know it’s a joke, but I think this is what got the SAHDs up-in-arms to start with.
>PB&J said …..didn’t know if one of their wives was hiding behind a bush, waiting for one of us to make a move on her man.My theory is that this is a lot of it. You are a married woman socializing with a married man without spouses or the built-in constraints and rules of the workplace. It feels weird to me. Meanwhile, I have lunch with male coworkers all the time. So….
>I don’t see anything wrong with meeting in a public place but meeting privately in a home for a one one one playdate would be weird. After all, you don’t meet your-co-worker at his house for lunch!!
>Anyone ever seen the movie Little Children? Hee hee. Prom King indeed. I thought the premise of a group of inclusive moms gossiping at the playground while enforcing rigid SNACK TIME! and oggling the SAHD was a hoot. This situation kind of reminds me of that in a small way.
>”That you would do this at all after all you’ve been through with SAHDS is one reason why I love you. :P”- I ditto this!!!!Mixed playgroups!!oh, may!- us crazy Cali people have been doing them for years now- you get use to the man boobs, after a while, it’s really like they aren’t there anymore!!Haha-Lindsey, you are so much fun!! Thanks-jakapk
>Wow… wow… wow. Once again, I am startled by how different our worlds can be, even when we all live in North America. I hail from Vancouver Canada, and in my circle of friends there are almost as many SAHDs as there are SAHMs. Maybe that’s because in Canada we get a full year of mat leave which can be divvied up between the parents, so it’s easier and more common for Dads here to be at home when their kids are little. Also, maybe because a lot of my male friends are work-from-home types, it just made sense for them to be the one to spend more time at home with the kids, even after our year of mat leave is up. I can see people for whom this situation isn’t so common finding the whole “SAHD” concept to be a bit novel… … But what totally boggles my mind here is the blatant sexism being demonstrated in this discussion (even in the guise of humor). Pardon me for saying so, but you ladies sound just like the misogynists who fought so hard against allowing women into private men’s clubs in the ’70s and ’80s. (“But… but… we won’t be able to talk about MEN things with them around! Horrors!”) Is the divide between the sexes still really so HUGE where you live? Is it really so hard to find common ground? Do any of you have actual friends of the opposite sex — or are you even able to look at a man simply as a friend, as opposed to a potential date rapist? … And when you get together with a bunch of women, are your conversations really so limited to “girly” topics such as make-up and bras and boys, that you would have to censor yourself so very much around a dad? Or was all that stuff exaggerated in the name of humor? (Otherwise, eesh.) For my part, I would certainly never think twice about inviting one or more of my dad friends over to my house so our kids can hang out and play. (Especially since some of them are much better parents then many moms I know.) And if any of my female friends objected, simply because they were men, I would be so astonished I honestly wouldn’t know what to say. Seriously… that would be SO uncool — just as bad as saying, “You’re not inviting HER, are you? She’s — gasp! — Jewish!” … Or black… Or Asian… or Muslim… Or obese… or I’ll get off the soapbox now… [insert racial or cultural difference here]. Sorry if I sound at all holier than thou. I’m just astonished at the prejudices being so openly and unapologetically being expressed here, and I can’t always tell if what’s being said is meant to be funny or is actually serious. I’ve always genuinely enjoyed reading this blog — but on this particular topic, it seems like the prevailing opinion is about 30 years behind what I’m accustomed to thinking of as “the norm.” But everyone’s norms are different, I guess…
>Play group. Civil rights. Same thing.
>Play group. Civil rights. Same thing.
>Sorry… but to me, “I don’t want to hang out with her because she’s Jewish” — or — “I don’t want to hang out with him because he’s a man” is blatant prejudice, no matter what the forum. Is that really so weird a point of view?
>What about a playgroup for dads who like to bicycle? Or a playgroup for people who are tall? (Don’t laugh. In Columbia, SC, there was a Tall Club that met monthly AND I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO JOIN!!!!).
>I think we’re all aware of the difference of opinion as to whether men & women can be “just friends” or not; for review, see “When Harry Met Sally.” Some can, some can’t, at least not as much as others. The desire to stick with one’s own gender in social situations is not necessarily misogyny or sexism. It’s natural to want to associate with people like us, and bond over things “the others” don’t share. It seems the “can’t be just friends” crowd are more aware of the differences between men & women, so they feel like mixing is a step toward romance, so even casual conversation feels like flirting. Denying the differences is just as unhealthy as excessive discrimination; this is why men’s movements and books like “Wild At Heart” by John Eldredge are so popular today; they’re a response to that “we’re all the same” idea some libbers pushed in the 70’s. As a single person I can tell you that you’d have a hard time getting a group of people to agree on what constitutes a date, so I can see how the conflicts come up here. I don’t know if I’d have a problem with a SAHM/SAHD coop…as long as no Canadians are allowed! HA! (That’s a joke, “lovin’”).But what I’m really interesting in, Lindsay, is your comment about the Amish; do they really employ monkeys in their worship services? Maybe collect the offering in their little hats? Fascinating. I smell a “perfect post” in that!
>Um I just thought this post was funny. Is that okay?
>That’s the problem. You laugh and someone else laughs and it becomes okay to make fun of SAHD’s. We have a hard row to hoe. It is NOT OKAY to laugh. I have a hard enough time with having a wife who makes all the financial decisions while I change diapers. What do you think that does to my masculinity!?
>I don’t think anyone is laughing at SAHDs.I think the point here is that women and men are different (or at least we perceive each other to be different), and it can be hard to navigate the waters in the beginning of any friendship. At the beginning of a friendship everyone is trying to figure out what is acceptable, what isn’t, what are the common interests, and what the other person’s personality is. I don’t know many people who just jump in without testing the water. As those friendships grow you learn about each other. Who knew that the Dad’s would want to talk about C-section tables…I can honestly say I have never had that conversation with my friends. And I am guessing that guys would never guess that my girlfriends and I have conversations about sports. I now know that Sam Adams is the beverage of choice for SAHDs so we are one step closer bridging the gap… BTW I like Woodchuck Pear Cider…
>If the row is too hard to hoe, there is always a different row… that provides a paycheck and maybe medical benefits.
>–“It is NOT OKAY to laugh. I have a hard enough time with having a wife who makes all the financial decisions while I change diapers. What do you think that does to my masculinity!?”–Uh, OK, I’ll say it.Dude, this is a HUMOR blog about parenting…or a parenting blog with a sense of HUMOR. Lindsay’s HUMOR is directed at the situation and as usual she’s including herself in that situation as much as anyone. No one’s laughing specifically at you or questioning your masculinity (at least…they WEREN’T). If you don’t have a sense of HUMOR about whatever unusual situation you’ve chosen to put yourself in, and the way people react, then your masculinity is not the only concern you should have. You’re a pioneer of sorts; it’s a lonely road, and the applause you’re missing doesn’t come until later, if at all. If you need a pat on the back for doing something difficult (as we all do, male or female), I suggest you look for it somewhere besides strangers on a mommy blog. If you feel so emasculated I suggest you a) redefine or expand your definition of manhood or b) make a change in your situation. Meanwhile, you can’t control what other people think of you or say about you. Who the heck are you to say what’s OK to laugh about, anyway? It’s not like anyone is yukking it up about killing puppies here.
>Forgive me if I’m over-posting here…But here’s an article on the differences between men and women you all might find interesting/relevant/helpful/entertaining/short.”Male and Female He Created Them”
>Regarding Mark Kelly Hall’s 1st two posts: It’s nice to hear an enlightened male’s POV. Thanks for sharing! iwantperch@aol.com
>To anonymous: Lighten up!